RCN Sea Fury Light Grey–Did we ever find it?
Fri Apr 12 23:42:25 2002
I know the question has come up several times in the last month but I don’t think I’ve seen a definitive answer: What was the Light Grey colour (FS equivalent) on the mid-50s Canadian Sea Furies?
Bob Perry was kind enough to send me a copy of the IPMS Canada magazine on RCN Sea Furies last year, and it has some great detailed scheme info, but nothing on exactly what shade the Light Grey was. And my other references are shooting blanks, too. I’ve seen the question answered as both 16473 (ADC Grey) and 16440 (USN Light Gull Grey), but somehow I don’t think so.
Anyone got any good refs on similarly painted RCN Seafires or Banshees? Maybe those would have something.
I’ve developed some theories on this colour, but I’ll wait to see if anyone has a REAL answer before I shoot off my mouth on it.
Millington
Sea Fury Grey
Sat Apr 13 05:05:04 2002
I have copies of IPMS Canada’s RT bound volumes from the early 70s. The 1970 issue includes colour chips – on page 74 of the July 1970 issue there is a chip for ‘Light Sea Grey’ as used on under surfaces of Sea Furies (and Seafires, Banshees, Trackers, Avenger, Early Sea Kings, etc) with ‘Dark Sea Grey’ uppers – prior to unification.
In the text the colours are described as ‘corresponding quite closely to “Sea Grey Medium” (Light Sea Grey) and “Extra Dark Sea Grey” (Dark Sea Grey).
To my eye the ‘Light Sea Grey’ chip is closest to FS16314. It is much darker than 16440 and 16473.
What is the history of the chips in RT? Are the chips in the bound editions (l have an idea the magazines are reprints???) the same as the originals? Or were they remixed to match the chips originally distributed in the magazine the first time around? How accurate were they in the first place?
Steve Sauv̩, Ottawa, Canada
Partial Answers…
Sat Apr 13 07:41:00 2002
The RT magazines were the originals, as were the bound volumes that we made back then.
As to the source of the colour chips in RT, I can’t help you there. However, in the IPMS Canada ‘Canadian Colours Guide’ (CCG), the RCN Light Grey is noted to be 1-GP-12c colour 501-106. Unfortunately this doesn’t help most modellers, since the 1-GP-12c colour standard was a ‘stand-alone’ Canadian standard, and was not matched to FS595 or BSC381c.
Anyway, the 1-GP-12c 3″ x 5″ colour standard card I have for 501-106 is very close to Compucolour’s RAF Medium Sea Grey paint. I compared the card against models I’ve got on the shelf and it’s definitely a close match. The 1-GP-12c colour standard card is somewhat lighter than BSC381c Medium Sea Grey, as is the mixed colour sample in the IPMS Canada CCG. (FYI, the CCG colour was matched against a protected area of original RCN paint we found on an ex-RCN Tracker at CFB Borden.)
The 16314 chip in my fan deck is only a ‘ballpark’ match to the 501-106 colour card, but it is pretty close to the CCG colour sample matched to the ex-RCN Tracker.
I don’t know if this helps or is even comprehensible, but I hope it’s been at least entertaining.
Snake
Great clue! Calling Barney Dunlevy!
Sat Apr 13 07:43:55 2002
I’d forgotten about the Avengers! Just looked up Barney Dunlevy’s outstanding RCN Avenger here on HS. Sadly, Barney doesn’t say what he used for the Light Grey other than that it was Poly S paint. Barney’s a meticulous modeller and maybe he can shed some light on this.
My refs indicate the colour should be “bluer” than the paint on Barney’s Avenger, but then again they’re paintings (three of them) and therefore not definitive at all. Anyone got any colour photos of any RCN airplanes of the era?
Bob Isackson
RCN Grey
Sat Apr 13 08:20:14 2002
Years ago I read an internet article on building an RCN Seafire by someone who only builds RCN and RN aircraft and he said the grey had a slightly bluish cast and the best match he found was the underside blue used on East German Mig-29s. Apparently someone used to market a paint of that colour, but after repeatedly looking I never found it.
Mark Kwasnycia
You’re talking about…
Sat Apr 13 08:41:04 2002
The website you’re talking about belongs to a terrific modeller named Dave Askett – he’s often seen posting at the FAA website (www.faasig.org). His site is the “Commonwealth Naval Aviation” site located at http://www.thot.net/~trea/dave.htm
It’s certainly worth a look for anybody interested in FAA/RCN aircraft.
The paint you’re wondering about is Xtracolor’s “Mig-29” grey – which is an extremely close shade (in my opinion – and that’s all it is) a close match to good old “Medium Sea Grey” commonly used on practically all late WWII British aircraft. As far as I know, this colour is still available within Hannant’s range. The reference to the Mig paint is included in Dave’s review of his scratch build Banshee.
Personally, whenever I’m building RCN aircraft of the appropriate vintage, I use Xtracolour Extra Dark Sea Grey and Medium Sea Greg – I may be easier to please than some people, but the match is bloody darn close, and the combination simply looks great when completed.
Bob Isackson
You’re talking about…
Sat Apr 13 08:51:26 2002
I agree. I’ve used medium sea grey and it looks good to me.
Mark Kwasnycia
Good Photo’s (book report!)
Sat Apr 13 09:01:09 2002
On the subject of good photos of RCN aircraft, try finding a book entitled “Banshees in the Royal Canadian Navy” written by Carl Mills, and published by Banshee Publications in 1991. (ISBN: 0-9695200-0-X). Even though it’s long out of print, I believe it’s still available as new from the Shearwater Aviation Museum in Canada (Home of most the best RCN a/c collection in Canada, and who are on-line, but I can’t remember the URL), and last time I looked (a month or two ago) I still came up with multiple hits at “www.bookfinder.com”, an on-line used book service.
Content wise – any modeller or aircraft nut will love this book. Along the lines of Robert Bracken’s “Spitfire, the Canadians” series, it’s full of pilot anecdotes, and “I was there” stories about flying Banshee’s onto our postage stamp sized carrier, and everything that entails. In addition to focusing on (our largely) forgotten Banshees, there’s a colour section at the end of the book, which includes some of the best photo’s I’ve ever come across of RCN Sea Furies.
Highly Recommended to anybody interested in RCN aviation, and things that fly in general!
Jennings
Here’s THE word!
Sat Apr 13 16:10:04 2002
This came to me a loooooong time ago from Mike Belcher (and he oughta know):
Light Grey: ~FS 16373 (there is no *1*6373, but it’s a gloss version of 36373)
Dark Grey: Same as Extra Dark Sea Grey (~FS16118)
Steve Sauv̩, Ottawa, Canada
For the Light Grey…
Sat Apr 13 21:46:51 2002
Ya know, FS 36373 is actually a pretty good match for the 1-GP-12c 3″ x 5″ colour card standard, for 501-106. It’s maybe a titch lighter than the card, but it’s a pretty good match, IMHO.
Snake, with a full report
Canadian Sea Fury Light Gray–Survey says….
Sun Apr 14 11:36:35 2002
I asked for the light gray color on the mid-50s Royal Canadian Sea Furies. Here’s the answers I got, with my comments.
FS16473 – (I don’t remember who posted this last week)
[Snake’s Comment: 16473 is common USAF ADC Gray, a glossy gray with a strong sky-blue cast. I have four refs on RCN Sea Furies, three paintings (Profile, Squadron in Action, Hobbycraft kit box), plus one very good photo B&W photo of surplus RCN Sea Furies sitting in a field (1971 Air Progress). The three paintings show this gray with a slight bluish cast, like 16473, but much lighter, and the B&W photo also suggests it’s much lighter.]
The RCN Light Grey is noted to be 1-GP-12c colour 501-106…very close to Compucolour’s RAF Medium Sea Gray…16314 chip in my fan deck is only a ‘ballpark’ match to the 501-106 colour card, but it is pretty close to the CCG colour sample matched to the ex-RCN Tracker – Steve Sauve
To my eye the ‘Light Sea Grey’ chip is closest to FS16314 – Millington
[Snake’s comment: An official spec! Now we’re getting somewhere! Unfortunately, 16314 has none of the bluish cast I’m expecting, and seems a tad dark. It’s like a slightly darker version of 16440 Gull Gray. Hmmmmm….]
Light Grey: ~FS 16373 (there is no *1*6373, but it’s a gloss version of 36373) – Mike Belcher via Jennings
Ya know, FS 36373 is actually a pretty good match for the the 1-GP-12c 3″ x 5″ colour card standard, for 501-106. It’s maybe a titch lighter than the card, but it’s a pretty good match- Steve Sauve
[Snake’s comment: Now we’re REALLY getting somewhere! Two people who seem to know what they’re talking about agreeing on something!]
Underside blue used on East German Mig-29s – Bob Isackson
[Snake’s comment: On the Urban Fredriksson’s Color Reference Charts (IPMS Sweden) this charts as 36495, a very light blue-gray that’s not far off the three painted references I have–not to say that they’re accurate, just that 36495 is close to them.]
“Medium Sea Grey commonly used on practically all late WWII British aircraft – Mark Kwasnycia
[Snake’s comment: On the Urban Fredriksson’s Color Reference Charts this equates as 36270 or 36440. 36440 (Light Gull Gray) I can see, especially if you’re going for scale effect, but 36270 (Neutral Gray) looks quite a bit too dark.]
I’d probably use Tamiya Sky Gray – Tom Cleaver
[Snake’s comment: On the Urban Fredriksson’s Color Reference Charts, this equates to 36473 ADC Gray, which is back where we started.]
Photo of restored Firefly, supposedly painted in original paints- Mark Beckwith.
[Snake’s comment: It’s hard to tell from the photo what the shade of gray is, but there is little if any blue in it, and theres plenty of blue in the sky background, so it’s not a film thing.]
Conclusion: It’s beginning to look like my three painted references are wrong–there’s little if any blue in this shade of gray, certainly much less than I expected. When I build mine, I’m going with 16373 if I can get it, or maybe a slightly tweaked 36440 if I can’t.
Thanks, everyone, for playing our game! Now, what’s the shade of dark blue on that Australian Sea Fury White 115?
Steve Sauvé, Ottawa, Canada
Ya know what I just thought of….
Sun Apr 14 15:17:05 2002
At the National Aviation Museum here in Ottawa (in fact about five minutes from where I now work), there’s an ex-RCN, ex-Ethiopian, Firefly, still in its original RCN colour scheme (minus the markings).
I wonder if there’s any part of the airframe that was painted but somehow protected from the harsh environment after all these years? It’s sure pretty tired-looking right now, but the Dark Grey and Light Grey are still there and heavily weathered.
(thanks to Brett Green for permission)
