'Threads'
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A Discussion on the Export Colours Used on P-51s
source: Hyperscale
(thanks to Brett Green for permission)
(Bold Italics are added by the Webmaster to clarify the text or correct known errors. Some comments have been edited for clarity)
Dana
Bell
Export colors on P-51s??
Sun Jun 22 10:11:16 2003
The July Scale Aircraft Modelling carries Victor G. Archer's article on export
colors for the RAF Mustang IV. The article reproduces the "factory"
drawings, adding color, and cites the use of ANA substitute colors.
I'd like to write a letter to the editors refuting much of what's in the
article, but it occurs to me that I've NEVER seen a US factory photo of a P-51
in ANA OD and ANA Sea Gray. All of the Mustang III photos I've seen are still
brown and green, and I've never seen a color shot of Mustang IV in the US.
Can anyone direct me to some color shots of camouflaged Mustang IVs in the US?
(I know most of the aircraft were repainted in the UK, so "overseas"
photos probably won't be much help. I'd just like to see something confirming
the use of those absurd colors.)
Many thanks!
-Dana
Jon
Freeman International Model Alliance Decals
Absurd P-51 colours
Sun Jun 22 14:23:10 2003
Dana wouldn't it be more beneficial to contact Victor Archer to find out the
colours rather than SAM?
I'm only saying this in light of SAM's editor at that time (Neil Robinson)
probably wanting to add this article for its reference and research value.
This reference was taken from and can also be found in the Schiffer USAAC
Camouflage book by Robert and Victor Archer, maybe that book may shed some more
light?
This situation makes people such as myself and others who illustrate (as I have
done in the On Target Profile 1 book on the RAF and Commonwealth Mustang)
aircraft in these colours look like we didn't do our research properly when in
the truth we get told what to illustrate them as.
Backtracking to the primary source would probably be more beneficial to all than
"shooting the messenger" (as some may say)
I hope this conundrum can be verified one way or another for everyone's benefit!
Regards
Jon
Dana
Bell
Shooting the messenger...
Sun Jun 22 15:37:15 2003
Hi Jon,
I have no doubt that Neil and SAM presented the article with the best of
intentions - I've nothing but respect for the man and the magazine.
I've made my share of mistakes in writing (and then some), but I appreciate the
chance to learn from those mistakes. I'm also one who'll frequently jump into a
discussion and tell folks when I was wrong. (My most famous recent error was
interpreting the masking paper on P-47 windows as a lighter shade of paint!)
I've no intention of shooting the messenger, but I cannot contact him either.
Though I don't know the son, the senior Archer has done everything in his power
to keep me from researching and writing. Let us call it "bad blood"
and leave it at that.
The problems with the article are numerous. As for primary documentation, the
article takes a late-1944 document and projects the colors forward to aircraft
that were delivered in 1943 - always a dangerous assumption. It applies a
technical order to factory standards - also a poor assumption. It relies on a
single document when there's a wealth of contradictory evidence. The article
relies on Archer's own poorly researched book to support it, even though the
book refutes it.
The question is not how often could the article accurately depict US-applied
colors for an export Mustang, but could it EVER accurately depict those colors.
It will confuse modelers for years to come. Before spelling this out in SAM, I'm
checking my favorite group of like-minded researchers to see if anyone has any
other input - the last thing we need is for my letter to add to the confusion.
Cheers,
-Dana
Gary Byk
That drawing is from Erection & Maint Manual
Sun Jun 22 17:41:34 2003
Hi Dana,
Please excuse me butting in here. I found that drawing reproduced complete with
its T.O. number in the NAA Erection & Maintenance Manual for the P-51D/K
held by the RAAF Museum here in Melbourne. Unfortunately I do not know the date
of the amendment that included it in the manual. It relates the use of ANA
colours on the Mustang IVs. As you can appreciate my interest is narrowed to
those aircraft that found there way into the RAAF, notably 3 Sqn, and there are
a number of IVs that have the hallmarks of this ANA colour camouflage scheme, as
you described elsewhere in this thread. Interestingly, one of the last aircraft
to reach 3 Sqn in this scheme (KH677) was used by the CO for 3 weeks and then
replaced by an un-camouflaged IV toward the end of 1944. On this basis it has
always been the belief of most researchers here in Australia that the use of
these ANA colours became noticeable in the RAAF European sqns with the
introduction of the Mustang IVs and not the Mustang IIIs, which have always been
held to be painted in RAF colours at RAF MUs. As a footnote, when Dick Hourigan
and Judy Pay restored their Mustang (A68-105) and painted it to represent KH677
of 3 Sqn they noticed significant variation in the camouflage pattern between
what was shown in the drawing and what was shown of photos of the actual
aircraft, with regard to the shape of the pattern.
Cheers,
Gary
Dana Bell
Hi Gary!
Sun Jun 22 22:02:08 2003
Not butting in at all - your input is always welcome!
My E&M was dated 20 December 1944, replacing the 25 April 1944 document
(which I haven't seen). It's possible that the drawings appear in the April
version, but I've not found them in any of the earlier versions. My copies were
generated by Wright Field for depot use, and though they might have found their
way to NAA, that would just be a guess.
My suspicion - apparently shared by Australian researchers - is that most or all
Mustang IIIs were camouflaged in Earth and Green at the factory. (I've not seen
any evidence that Mk.IIIs wore gray from the factory.) Mustang IVs could have
been delivered in aluminum finish, then painted at depots. Perhaps they wore the
Sea Gray, but, as always, I'd like to see some proof.
I have only a few of the pieces, but they suggest that the drawings in the
E&M saw very limited use, if they were used at all.
Cheers,
-Dana
Franek
Grabowski
Hi Gary!
Mon Jun 23 06:24:17 2003
Hello Dana
Some points to be considered.
All known factory photos of Mustang IIIs are from Inglewood, mostly FX series
(FZ and early FB also built there).
They indeed show a Temperate Land Scheme for which I've got a theory (TLS was
cancelled for home based fighters in 1941) which although not backed up directly
in documents, seems very likely.
Aircraft were overpainted in UK in several patterns, this probably due to
various locations this had been done.
There're no known photos photos of RAF Mustang IIIs from Dallas thus it can't be
said if they were TLS, DFS or 'US scheme'.
Early batches (mostly FB series) of Dallas Mustangs show some chaos in
camouflage patterns, some look like with the OG either added to standard OD/NG
or replacing another colour.
Later batches (HB & KH) are more uniform and completely overpainted.
All Mustang IVa's are 'known' to be delivered in NM. It's claimed that Mk IVs
were painted in UK in standard DFS, indeed the camouflage looks British painted
in every case I've seen (not that many). However I've seen a photo showing
P-51D/K at Dallas with a definitely RAF camouflage but nothing allowing any
conclusions nor recreating the pattern.
I'm always eager to hear if you have found anything on Dallas factory schemes as
well as any details concerning 'real' interior colours.
Cheers
Franek
Dana
Bell
Thanks, Franek!
Mon Jun 23 09:48:22 2003
We seem to be heading in the same direction - we just need more evidence. But
clearly the SAM article has things wrong on the Mustang IIIs, with no evidence,
yet, to support the Mustang IVs.
Cheers,
-Dana
Dave
Fleming
Same drawing was published in SAM couple of years back
Sun Jun 22 15:14:54 2003
in Black and white - came from (I think) Ley Reynolds, at the time of the 'did
they paint Mustangs earth in Italy' debate (Notice a certain illustrator bravely
took the step to do 'em that way! - I tend to think at least some may have
been).
Now this doc is a form of 'primary source' - but so is a photo of a Mustang IV
in camouflage at the factory. And factory drawings have been known to exist
without the scheme being applied (B-58 springs to mind).
One possibility - the first 30 were supposed to be P-51Ds, the rest P-51Ks -
maybe one factory painted them and another didn't?
Gary
Byk
Yes, Ley wrote to SAM -
Sun Jun 22 17:26:54 2003
asking about that drawing, i.e., what was its source. I have a copy of that
drawing which I took from the Erection and Maintenance Manual held by the RAAF
Museum here in Melbourne, Australia. I wrote to Neil at SAM explaining that.
Incidentally, the drawing is reproduced in the manual complete with its T.O.
number quoted. It clearly shows the application of ANA colours to Mustang IVs
supplied to the RAF.
Cheers,
Gary
Dave
Fleming
Putting together the evidence...
Sun Jun 22 11:07:38 2003
As by that time, production US fighters didn't have camouflage, weren't those
for the RAF painted at maintenance depot level in the States if required before
delivery? Also, others were delivered in metal finish? (Reference Geoff Thomas'
Thunderbolt research)
I know that the first Mustang in the UK (TK589/44-13332)was in metal/silver when
delivered, and there are plenty of shots if aircraft in the KH7 series in
service with what appears to be standard USAAF scheme, but with RAF markings. I
have also come across (but cannot find today) eye-witness references to these
aircraft being painted after delivery.
Dana
Bell
Thanks Dave!
Sun Jun 22 15:16:01 2003
The article does note that about half of the Mustang IVs were delivered in
aluminum finish (though it reports this as "natural metal"). I expect,
as you noted, that many other aircraft were painted at depots.
The problems is that the article applies later data to earlier aircraft, showing
North American delivering green and gray aircraft when they were green and
brown, and then quoting the wrong colors. Presentations like this in articles
with magazines like SAM - where accuracy tends to count for something - just
confuses everyone.
Oddly enough, your mention of OD/Gray Mustangs fits with an earlier Anglo-US
agreement, though I've never seen photos of such aircraft.
Cheers,
-Dana
CraigQ
Nothing here Dana............
Sun Jun 22 10:43:24 2003
Only color photos of camo P-51s stateside I've seen are same as you, the
brown/green Mustang IIIs.
This is the first I've heard of this, interesting.
Anders
Post script
Sun Jun 22 10:29:22 2003
Could you explain in which way these colours are 'absurd'. Is it that they do
not conform to bulletin no.157, or is it something else?
Anders
Dana
Bell
Mustang colors...
Sun Jun 22 15:08:32 2003
Hi Anders,
There are multiple problems with the article - the "factory" drawings
are actually from AAF tech orders - produced for depots, not for manufacturers.
(Manufacturers used specifications, though there were many occasions when they
COULD use T.O.s.) The TO wasn't released until after most of the aircraft had
been painted. The use of OD 613 was impossible in 1943 or for most of 1944 -
first the color hadn't been approved, then the AAF didn't approve stocks from
paint manufacturers. Photos of Mustang IIIs show a color different than the OD
on P-51s on the same ramp - suggesting the continued use of RAF Dark Green.
Photos also show the use of Dark Earth, NOT Sea Gray as called for in the specs.
Sea Gray and OD (or Dark Green) have much less contrast then is seen in B&W
photos, suggesting (but not proving) that Sea Gray was never used. North
American was using Sky Gray for earlier Mustang undersurfaces - I suspect (but
again, cannot prove) that Light Gray 602 was never applied. Although the
drawings called for "Sky Blue," the ANA color was actually Sky.
In short, a model painted to match the drawings in the article would almost
certainly be totally wrong - though there are possibilities of some
depot-painted aircraft wearing the scheme.
Cheers,
-Dana
Anders
Re: Export colors on P-51s??
Sun Jun 22 10:23:24 2003
I saw these 'factory' drawings for the first time, in black and white, nearly
thirty years ago, I believe it was in Scale Models.
Interestingly, if you study the drawings closely, they do not make sense. The
drawings show three different patterns, one top one, one right and one left - it
would have been impossible to paint an aircraft with these instructions. Look
for example at the dark sea grey around the canopy in the top view, there is no
dark sea grey around the canopy in the side views. Same problems with the
pattern on the nose and tail. If you do write, feel free to add my comments.
Anders
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