'Threads'
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'Threads' |
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Special Thanks to Gary Barling, member C#0014, of Petawawa and IPMS Ottawa for gathering this material for the webpage
Canadian
Sherman
October
20 2002 at 6:07
PM
Antonio Ricci
Hi!
I think it is a Canadian Sherman V in Italy!
Is the camouflage correct?
Thanks in advance
It
appears correct
20 200211:07 PM
Frag
The markings for this model are Lord Strathcona's Horse of the Canadian
5th AD. The Canadian 5th AD was in Italy
until 1945, when they moved to Holland.
The camo was a carryover from late North Africa/Sicily and lasted till sometime
after the battle of Monte Cassino as far as I can tell.
Not many Sherman V's carried this camo, but there is a pic in the old Squadron
book "Brit Tank Markings and Names" by B.T. White. The pic is on page
60/61 and shows Sherman V's of the Princess Louise's New Brunswick Hussars, also
of 5th CAD. At least three tanks appear to be in desert camo with three others
in OD.
I'd say the model in question is accurate enough by my standards. By the way,
Ultracast of Canada carries decals for both the aforementioned regiments.
Hope this helps.
Camouflage
October 20 2002 11:25 PM
Antonio
Thanks for your help Frag!!!
What colours to make the camouflage? Black over dark yellow base?
My
best guess at camo...
October 21 2002, 9:23 PM
Frag
As Paul states, the maple leaf should be on a maroon
backing not red. The Ultracast decals I mentioned are correct in color.
From what I've read the camo was a bluish black over light mud or stone. I think
you will want something more "brown" than desert yellow.
The old Tanks Illustrated #20 "Allied Tanks Italy - WW 2" by Brian
Perret shows a similarly camo’d Sherman V belonging to the 6th South African
AD.
Also as Paul points out, you can never say never with Shermans,
God love 'em!
Canadian
Sherman
October 20 2002, 11:35 PM
Paul Roberts
Well, its a bit of a hash of the markings, but its
supposed to be Canadian, for sure.
The camouflage looks fine for action in Sicily
and very early in the Italian campaign, although I must confess to not having a
real feel for the tone of the sand/light stone colour.
As for the markings, the leaf on red square indicates 1st Cdn Inf Div, which, of
course, never had Shermans. The tank support for 1CID was provided by 1st Cdn
Tank Brigade, which used Shermans that looked a lot like the photo but the
markings were different.
If the square with the leaf is not red but maroon, then we have a Sherman of 5th
Cdn Armd Div, and the 51 tallies with Lord Strathcona's Horse. There is a debate
as to whether these vehicles used the British standard red square for armoured
brigades or the Armoured Corps' green over blue, so we'll let that slide. The
problem with the 5th CAD is that it didn't arrive in Italy until November 1943
and didn't see action until early 1944, so the sand and green finish isn't at
all appropriate.
You can take your pick as to what you want to use out of all this.
Well
shut my mouth!
October 20 2002,11:42 PM
Paul Roberts
I took so long to answer the post I didn't see the other excellent post.
I also didn't look at the photo in White's book. So what I'm getting at is that
apparently (obviously) some vehicles remained in the sand/green finish longer
than I thought. Learn something new every day.
Canadian
Shermans in Italy
October 21 2002, 10:48 PM
Steve
Hi there
Canadian Shermans in Italy,
especially 5th armoured Brigade and Governor General's Horse Guards ones, were
finished in a huge range of colours.
As you all may know, the 5th Canadian Armoured Division was sent to Italy sans
vehicles. They were to take over the equipment of the departing 7th (British)
Armoured Div. Well, you can guess what happened, the sort of 'bend over, here it
comes' school of logistics. Every British (and 4th Indian) division swapped all
their clunkers and shit boxes to the Desert Rats, who left them behind for the
Canadians.
Some of the tanks were new, but coming from RAOC depots in southern Italy and North Africa,
were finished in a desert scheme. Many of the other tanks were desert veterans,
probably with little original paint scheme left. So a scheme of Light Mud with
black of Olive green No.7 would be appropriate, at least till they got
repainted, if they ever did.
By the way Paul, the Ontario Regiment official history says their 'vehicles were
camouflaged in light colours to blend with the browns and yellows of the
Mediterranean area in the summer'.
So maybe 1 CATB Shermans did have a tropical look to 'em?
Canadian
Shermans in Italy
October 22 2002,12:37 AM
Paul Roberts
Y'know, I don't think so, at least not as a general
rule. Looking at the photos in the RCAC history I see a lot of contrast compared
to the really light coat of dust that is heavily caked on parts of the vehicles.
The dust certainly matches the ground colour, which the infrequent colour photos
shows as a really light yellow, so what colour would be contrasting below that?
I know that page 145 says that the three regiments were repainted "in a
coat of sand coloured paint" but the photos on pages 148 (3 Rivers), 152 (3
Rivers), and 153 (Ontarios)
show what I would consider to be dark coloured vehicles. Wm Ogilvie's painting
on page 149 also shows a definitely green vehicle. While it is a painting and
open to artistic license, I have generally found Ogilvie's paintings to be quite
accurate and the artist's eye to the basic colour is generally true as well.
The photos from the early days in Italy also seem to show darker vehicles. Pg 155 shows a Canadian tank exiting an LST
and it looks darker than the beach and darker than the light uniforms the
soldiers are wearing. The photos of the Calgary's
vehicles on pages 158 and 159 definitely show vehicles that are NOT sand
coloured, you can even see a camouflage pattern that isn't terribly contrasty
suggesting two darkish shades. The contrast with the caked on dust is quite
marked.
I can't imagine a wholesale repainting anytime after the Sicily landings, there wasn't the time and I bet there wasn't the paint. It might be
heresy, but I suggest that the Canadian vehicles were in either American OD or
OD with a contrasting pattern of either SCC2 or SCC1a Browns. If you look at the
photo of the Calgarys on transporters on page 160 you can see a big difference
in the colour of the centre of the squadron triangle (I'm pretty sure that would
be black or dark blue) and the side of the turret, but the demarcation of the
camouflage on the side of the hull is much harder to pick out. The red of the ID
sign also blends right in.
OD and Browns. Betcha.
Comments?
Canadian
Shermans
in Italy
October 22 2002, 5:38 PM
Paul Roberts
Aha!
I was in the local shop today and the local vet happened to show up. George
Simson was a member of the 48th Highlanders of Canada and, as part of 1st Cdn
Inf Div, landed in Sicily with the rest. He fought all
the way up through Italy and then went to Holland when 1st Cdn Corps all moved
to NW Europe.
He stated that he remembers quite clearly that the Ontarios, 3 Rivers and
Calgary regiments had green Shermans, He also remembers that the Brit tank
regiments has sand and green Shermans so he does remember seeing both groups of
colours. He doesn't remember any camouflaged Shermans, but that isn't conclusive
one way or the other as not all Shermans in 1 CAB were camouflaged.
This also matches what Don Dingwall has in his monograph on "Canadian
Armour in the Italian Campaign". It further defines when the sand and green
finish would be appropriate for 5 CAD. Per an order of 12 January 1944 all 5 CAD vehicles that
remained in light coloured schemes were to be repainted in either OD, dark green
or brown. All vehicles were to be repainted by spring 1944 and, since 5 CAD
entered combat in Feb 1944, this leaves only a few months while they were
"working up" and possibly 2 months or so of combat where the sand and
green might have been found, although I bet any yellow Shermans were overpainted
before going into combat in the winter of 1944.
red
vs. green over blue
October 21 2002,10:23 PM
Graeme Davidson
Its my understanding that "armoured" units
used the white on red AoS, while "armoured recce" and non-loggie tank
delivery units used the white on green/blue. At least, that’s what the order
dated 10 Jun 1944 said they were supposed to have.
red
vs. green over blue
October 21 2002, 11:55 PM
Paul
Roberts
This
is true for British armoured units, but, there is a debate here in Canada about whether Canadian units
followed suit. One school says that they used the British system and the other
says that there was an order that all RCAC units would use the Armoured Corps
green over blue flash and not just the recce units like the South
Albertas. Both sides claim
photographic evidence, but I have yet to see a photo of the period that
conclusively proves either case. I tend to build using the green over blue for
two reasons: a) I like the different colours it adds to the models and b) I'm
good friends with one of the main green/blue proponents and he'll bloody well
kill me if I show up with a red flash.
A
few points.....
October 22 2002, 8:35 PM
Don Dingwall
5 CAD Shermans would likely
only have been green(ish...you know what I mean) as ALL except 5 of their new
tanks came from North African stocks in the first weeks of Feb. 44.
They DID NOT come from 7th Armd!!! We only took their softskins, and not all of
them either.
This is from my revised manuscript, unpublished at this time, but soon will be:
"Some speculation exists as to the origin of the
Shermans that were issued to the 5th Armoured. Nicholson, in the official history, states
that the 5th CAD received new Shermans, not Desert Rat retreads. According to correspondence between Maj. Gen. Guy Simonds, the
newly appointed divisional commander, and Lt. Gen. Harry Crerar, the division
was given the choice of accepting diesel Shermans from 7th Armoured or waiting for Sherman Vs from depots in
North Africa. Simonds decided that it was best to start off
with the new vehicles. This was confirmation of a decision taken at a meeting
between representatives of Allied Forces HQ, 7th Armoured Division, and 5th
Canadian Armoured Division on 11 November, 1943, where it was decided that
"the policy of equipping 5 Cdn. Armd. Div. for actual ops is on the basis
of completely new equipment". One notable exception to this policy was the
3 Grant and 2 Honey tanks fitted as command vehicles by 7th Armoured. They were
eventually exchanged for Sherman command tanks as supplies became available, but the Canadians were rather
pleased to find they were at liberty to take any fittings they found useful in
the original 5 tanks when the replacements arrived."
As for 1 CAB, they came ashore with the vehicles they were issued with in the UK.
They were KD or OD. The variations we often see in Italy is due to the fact that vehicles recovered and repaired seldom went back to the
same unit, so a previously NZ tank could easily become a Cdn. one and vice
versa.
As for green over blue. Prove it. No one has. Every time someone claims this
they have NO FIRST HAND evidence. No primary source evidence has ever been
presented. The longer this goes the more it bores me no end.
Yet, there is TONS of documentation for solid colours, which the proponents of
this green blue nonsense seem to think is some sort of conspiracy. Do you really
think that certain units would go against published orders from CMHQ while
others did what they were told?
Repeatedly?
The original research was faulty. Plain and simple.
Better yet, prove me wrong. I have copies every markings guideline issued by
CMHQ or the CF, from 1940 thru to 1967, so I'd like to know if I missed
something.....But it'd better be documentation from CMHQ, or another primary
source, not from some "interpreter".
And Graeme, your research is sound.
Green
over Blue
October 22 2002,
11:35 PM
Paul Roberts
”As for green over blue. Prove it. No one has.”
Hey, I certainly don't have any proof one way or another and don't claim to have
any. I have neither the photographic evidence one side says they have nor the
written orders you have. I readily admit I have never been able to see a
definite green over blue tac sign and I am more and more willing to believe in
the solid red on that basis alone. We both know who the "interpreter"
is and I don't think anyone is purposefully misleading anyone. I have to admit I
have looked favourably on the green over blue as a personal choice just because
I think it looks a bit different and nicer on a model, but I wouldn't let that
get in the way of the facts. I also didn't know anyone had a full set of the
operational markings guidelines, which makes me even more comfortable with the
red markings option.
Y'know scans of those documents would make a pretty good web site all on their
own. Ever considered posting them for all to see? Hell, I'd even donate the web
space, if that was the shortfall.
BTW what other neat things have you dug up for a second edition of your
monograph?
Thanks for your input.
Sherman
October 24 2002, 11:15 AM
Mike Canaday
Detroit Tank Arsenal was wrapping up a remanufacturing
program on M4A4's in the February 1944 timeframe. Wesley W. Stout, in the book
"Tanks are a Mighty Fine Thing" states that the remanufactured M4A4s
were used as the main part of the British armoured strength in Italy.
Perhaps the stocks the 5th Armoured drew from were those being referred to.
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