'Threads'
|
'Threads' |
|
Rob Bilinski
RCAF Sabre Mk.4 - Which kit?
Tue Oct 8 12:28:02 2002
I would like to build a RCAF Sabre Mk.4. Which Hasegawa (1/48th scale) kit
should I use? Also, would any modifications to the kit be necessary?
Tom Cleaver
Building a Sabre Mk. IV
Tue Oct 8 12:40:06 2002
There are three ways you can create a Sabre Mk. IV (F-86E):
1. Mate the wings of a P-M F-86D to a Hasegawa F-86F.
2. Cut off the slat area of the wing of a P-M F-86D and mate that to the wing of
a Hasegawa F-86F-30 (short wing) kit.
3. Buy the (expensive) Cutting Edge F-86A/E conversion set and mate that wing
leading edge to a Hasegawa F-86F-30 kit.
Yes, it can be done. Go read my review at Modeling Madness to see how I did
Option 1.
Anders Svennevik
Re: RCAF Sabre Mk.4 - Which kit?
Tue Oct 8 12:43:26 2002
Assuming that the RCAF and the RAF used the same mark number for the same
aircraft the answer is you could maybe use a F-86F-30.
I'll explain the 'maybe'. The Mk.2 and Mk.4 (at least the RAF aircraft) were
delivered with the original wing - this wing has a leading slat and is narrow in
chord. In service some of the aircraft were updated with the new 6-3 wing. This
new wing had the chord extended 3" at the tip and 6" at the root. In
addition the slat was removed and a fixed leading edge installed. There is a
small wing fence.
Modelling wise a Mk.4 with the new wing is the same as an F-30.
If you can find a photo of the specific aircraft you are building check if there
is a small wing fence. In which case use a Hasegawa F-86F-30 kit. To the best of
my knowledge Hasegawa has not done the early wing. They do, I believe, an
F-86F-40 which has a different wing, and cannot be used for a Canadair Sabre.
There are some minor detail changes, unfortunately I don't remember what.
Jennings
Before you get too wrapped around the axle...
Tue Oct 8 14:25:47 2002
If you're building an RAF machine (most of the Mk.4s went to the RAF), the huge
majority of them either had, or were retrofitted with, the hard wing as in the
Hasegawa and Academy kits. You can go to the trouble of adding slats if the
particular machine you want to do had the original wing, but check photos
carefully. Almost all of the RAF's airplanes eventually flew with the hard '6-3'
wing with the fence.
Likewise, almost all of the old RCAF and RAF machines which were recycled for
further sale to countries like Turkey, Yugoslavia, etc had the hard wing
retrofitted at the depot prior to onward sale.
Geoff McDonell
RCAF Sabre 4?
Tue Oct 8 14:35:54 2002
(this post was later withdrawn by Geoff - see
correction below - ***)
The Canadair built Sabre 4 was primarily an export order for the RAF. As far as
I know (references are all at home right now) the RCAF only flew the Sabre 2
(original NA factory order) and the Sabre 5 and Sabre 6 aircraft. The Sabre 5
and 6 were all Canadair built aircraft with the Orenda engines. The Sabre 3 was
not a production model, hence the gap in Sabre "marks". The Sabre 4
was externally similar to the Sabre 5 with the hard wing (6-3 wing extension)
and the small fence at mid span, however, a lot of them were retro-fitted with
the slatted wing while with the RAF later in their career. I can be corrected on
this, but as far as I know (without driving home right now) there were no Sabre
4's painted in RCAF markings...(ducking, knowing someone out there may refute
this rather bold statement!)
Rob Bilinski
422 Squadron "loaners"
Tue Oct 8 14:46:02 2002
Hi Geoff: The decals I have are RAF Sabres loaned to the RCAF for
"Leapfrog". They have RAF serial numbers and fin flashes with RCAF
roundels and 422 squadron markings. Really colourful, that's why I'd like to
build one. So you are technically correct on this.
Geoff McDonell
Ahhh, it's all coming back to me now
Tue Oct 8 15:13:25 2002
Right, now I remember- yeah, they had that gaudy "banner" type
fuselage flash with the tomahawk crest...I think I may even have that sheet at
home in my Sabre Stash. But that's where I guess the gnit pickers can debate
whether or not those particular aircraft were "RCAF" or RAF aircraft
with some large and aggressive Canadian/RCAF "zaps". Good luck on your
project. Cheers, G.
Jim Bates
RE: Actually I think they were real RCAF birds.
Tue Oct 8 15:32:26 2002
Geoff,
I believe they were RCAF aircraft. As usual we commit and don't have the
aircraft for the job - so we borrow someone else's planes. At least a few of
them later on flew with RCAF markings. They were RCAF if only for a short time.
Of course if someone can prove me wrong...
Rob Bilinski
Thanks for the help...It looks like I'll have to modify...
Tue Oct 8 14:40:16 2002
Hi Guys: Thanks for all the help. The decals I have are by Arrow Graphics and
depict the RCAF Mk.4s which went to Europe in August 1953. I located some photos
and they do, in fact, have the wings with the slats. It looks like I'll have to
modify a Hasegawa F86F-30 kit. Now should I use a Pro-modeler Sabre Dog as Tom
did or spring for the Cutting Edge conversion? Hmmmm.
*** Geoff McDonell
*** Update- RCAF Sabre Mk. 4
*** Wed Oct 9 09:35:55 2002
I wish to correct and update a response to a post I made yesterday about a query
on the "RCAF Sabre Mk. 4". After checking my references last night (Milberry's
Sabre book, plus various bits cobbled away in my file), it turns out that yes,
the RCAF did take 71 of the RAF production Sabre 4's. The Sabre 4 was
essentially an F-86E and was built with the J-47 engine, and had the slatted
wings, not the "hard" wing, and as well the Sabre 4 did NOT have the
6-3 wing chord extensions. The RAF originally wanted the Sabre 4 to be built
with the Avon engine (as per the Australian CAC built versions), but production
tooling could not be brought up to speed to accommodate the major fuselage
design changes to accommodate the shorter and wider Avon, plus the RCAF did not
want to use the Avon engine either, so a run of Sabre 4's were produced with the
J-47 engine in order to make the delivery schedules. The RCAF needed some
interim Sabre numbers to keep their NATO commitments, and managed to get 71 of
the RAF order for their use. There was a time in England and Europe where RCAF
Squadrons flew these Sabres all decked out in full RAF markings and serial
numbers, but with RCAF crests and RCAF idents painted on the fuselage. These
"borrowed" Sabre 4's were quickly replaced with Sabre 5's as they came
off the Canadair production lines, as the anemic J-47 Sabres were no match for
the Orenda powered versions that Canadair was producing. Just needed to post
this in the aim of accuracy for anyone else who wanted to model a Sabre 4, and
correct my mis-statements yesterday. Cheers, G.
Brent Gair
Throwing in the Towel :-)
Wed Oct 9 12:11:19 2002
Personally, I've decided to completely GIVE UP trying to figure out the Sabre
wing nonsense!
I've got TWO Sabres within ten minutes walking distance of my house...one on a
pole, one nicely tucked into a museum. I have several reference books on the
Sabre including that magnificnet Milberry work. When I was building my Sabre
model, one helpful Hyperscaler was kind enough to send me detailed drawings of
the various wing configurations.
You know what? I STILL CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT!!
So I just built the darn model anyway. I used the Academy 1/48 kit and built it
as a Sabre V. Is it really a model of a Sabre V? I have no clue :-)
Here's a picture FWIW:
http://groups.msn.com/WorldAccordingtoGair/models.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=96
BillClark
Here's my towel too!!!!
Wed Oct 9 14:37:08 2002
My RAF Sabre Mk4(or 2?) is featured over on ARC's gallery . I used the Academy
(hell of a lot cheaper than Hasegawa's and just as good!) F86E non-slatted
"Hard" wing kit as the basis. This had the extended (i.e. 6-3 wing)
chord but need a scale foot removed off or each wing tip.
Accurate? Hmmm who knows! (I must have checked out the same inconclusive
drawings!)but she don't arf look nice next to my 34 Sqn Hunter F5.
I took the model along to the Model Club, and a fellow modeller had build the
Mongtam Mk 6(?). As far as i know both wings were of the "6-3" type;
Monogram's being the wider span BUT my wing looked decidedly anaemic compared to
the Mono one!!!
So, who knows - I don't thats for sure!
Jennings
All true... but regarding the wings
Wed Oct 9 10:45:31 2002
As I said, in looking through many references, most, if not all, of the Mk4s
flown by the RAF (and likely the RCAF) eventually had the hard wing retrofitted
to them.
Jim Bates
Yes to RAF, No to RCAF
Wed Oct 9 12:59:17 2002
Jennings,
As Geoff says one of the RCAF Mk. IVs were around long enough to get the hard
wings. You are correct with the RAF birds.
Jim
P.S.: High Planes has just released the Academy "hard" wing F-86 with
decals for a bunch of RAF Mk. IVs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
